Curse

Quozz · Oct 01, 2007, 06:11 PM // 18:11

I actually found the new report system to be a resounding success! Those who log into GW to play and have fun had no problems whatsoever. Leeching was nearly non-existant and the same with leavers. General chat was far more pleasant.

The only people having problems are the very ones this new system was supposed to be targeting - rude, immature griefers. I am so sick of hearing people try and justify their wanting to leave matches early. Amazes me how they enter a random arena and then seem totally befuddled when they get a team that has little offense or has players with less then optimum builds. Sorry, you get no sympathy from me if you get banned for leaving. And if you don't like it, then please by all means leave GW and you will do the rest of us a big favor.

EinherjarMx · Oct 01, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

It would be nice to give some time for the slow loading players to load, there are lots of click-happy morons who /report just because they see the toon standing and not moving 1 minute before the match, I guess they could script the DCS to work only after the match started and not while everyone is getting ready

GloryFox · Oct 01, 2007, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
Umm.. you know you can only be reported by your own team right? (which means you weren't doing your job).

Well this is purely subjective. For example If I'm playing a monk with smite skills should I be reported in Aspenwood for not healing or protecting? Who's job are you referring too? If everyone is saying run amber and I choose to wipe out the Luxan Commanders am I not doing "my job". Job is purely speculation IMO. How about in AB, yes EoE can be annoying but someone should not be banned /reported for dropping one in the middle of a large combat going on.

Poor judgment should not be a bannable offense. Refusing to participate & griefing should be.

sterbenx2 · Oct 01, 2007, 07:16 PM // 19:16

I don't think its a good system at all. Player reporting players, stupid idea. Why should I have to worry about getting reported for doing nothing? I haven't been reported, but, I don't play PvP anymore, just in case. Not that I do anything that could be reported, I just won't take the chance.

So Thanks to Anet for the "dictator" vibe in-game now. After playing since release of Proph.. I'm Done.

phan · Oct 01, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Guild Wars community is one of the worst of any online game (Halo series probably tops it)..

Someone never been to cod2 .. anyone know the call of duty community ?

JeniM · Oct 01, 2007, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan

Someone never been to cod2 .. anyone know the call of duty community ?

Sadly its any community made up of little kids and braggers
If its not some immature statement (usually sexual) it's "ha n00b i pwnz u"
Why do you think i stay in Zaishen Elite for Balth Faction? cap's at 6k so thats nearly a full new hero bar for PvE
(Not that the PvE community's any better just that your not forced to deal with it, H/h FTW)

Guillaume De Sonoma · Oct 01, 2007, 07:56 PM // 19:56

I think the system is pretty bad, players cannot police themselves. Anet made a mistake.

HawkofStorms · Oct 01, 2007, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume De Sonoma

I think the system is pretty bad, players cannot police themselves. Anet made a mistake.

Again. How is this definitive? Where is your evidence?

I have only seen a few posts made with real, subjective points about why this is a bad idea and doesn't work. Most people are rejecting this idea just because they think it's a bad idea, not because they have seen any proof that it won't work/had any personal experiences showing that.

Simpley put, if you have been screwed over by the report system unfairly then go ahead and post. I'd (and a.net as well so they can fix the loopholes) would love to hear your legitmate complaints.
If your only complaint is "I don't think this is a good idea, GW players are too (insert noobish, childish, immature)" don't bother posting.

Begin Poly Sci talk - Most of the population of the world is simpleminded, short term utility maximizers. That doesn't mean governments don't work.

DreamMystic · Oct 01, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Its really nice to crash before you load into the arena, only to be greeted by a dishonorable debuff when you log back in. GG

Exterminate all · Oct 01, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan

Someone never been to cod2 .. anyone know the call of duty community ?

Guild Wars community is nice if you find the right people same with cod2, just don't talk to the buggers or whatever you want to call them. Then everything will be fine for you, if no one talks to them or eggs them on they will stop, same with CoD2. I have a lot of servers I like to play on Cod2 and they are all nice to me and everyone in them. If you find someone making trouble ignore them, they will stop.

Enough said.

EinherjarMx · Oct 01, 2007, 09:35 PM // 21:35

[QUOTE=GloryFox]...How about in AB, yes EoE can be annoying but someone should not be banned /reported for dropping one in the middle of a large combat going on. /QUOTE]

well, that's just mean, funny but mean, anyway, you're right, now with the new system the tension between players will be a lot, suddenly people who RA, will feel obligated to bring gimmick builds instead of their own experimental ones (note, I said "experimental" not those 55's or terratanks or stuff like that, that some jerks play just to piss off other players)

as i said in my previous post, it would be really nice to let the system kick in after the match starts and not when everyone's loading

lightblade · Oct 01, 2007, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Oh wow..I only see people complain on forum. Just go to RA and ask around and you'll get positive feedbacks on DCS.

Yes, people do get pissed off and offended easily, just like people on this forum. Guru ban people more often than Anet :P

GladTitleNerf · Oct 01, 2007, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Okay where to start?

The update as I see it was an attempt, which i encourage, to fix several issues that were problematic with Random Arena.

First. The Glad Point and Title revision.

ANET basically nerfed the entire title. Yes, I can see that they equally adjusted the points for all players. As of right now I am pretty skeptical of whether this really fairly distributed the points. You multiplied the points by 6? and the titles by 4? Really love to see some sort of scientific explanation (PIE CHARTS YAY!) where this would display how those numbers aren't arbitrary. I can't tell as of now if the numbers were skewed in favor of lower ranks or in favor of higher ranks but, like I said, I believe they were skewed in one direction or the other.

Regardless of the point/title change the difficulty of earning a glad point was lessened. In light of this the title itself has simply been nerfed. You can argue all you want over that but the point system is closer to that of HA rather than its former system. Grinding/Farming glads is now a real possibility. The time spent vs. skill ratio is way off now and in favor of time spent. Having very little skill and acquiring a title is now easier. Before the update I think we can all agree that acquiring glad points was very difficult at ten consecutive wins.

Answer: Change it back and let people cry. I don't recall many people complaining about the difficulty of getting ten although in retrospect is was difficult to do. The adjustment, IMO, wasn't equal in respects to everyones current point total. And, it made the title easier to farm/grind so it lessened its prestige.

Second. Dishonor Hex spell thing.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to "leave" a team and circumvent the "dishonor hex". You type /resign and if no one follows suit you play poorly, don't make any attempts to self heal and see to it that you quickly get killed in a manner that isn't too obvious. If someone on your team types /resign do you think that individual is really gonna be playing at %100.

Then there are the players that don't type /resign but basically Kamikaze or LEEROY and die in order to leave. I have seen many players that charged in and died prior to the update so I dont think that you can legitamately report someone for commiting cyber suicide. If you do you are basically reporting ppl for lack of skill.

So, leaving IMO wasn't necessarily solved. It was inconvenienced. Any player of a certain skill level can recognize the wammo with the Droks runner build and nec that says hes an MM are pretty much making a glad point impossible. Not to be judgmental but an experienced player would also doubt that said players even have a rez sig (fundamental RA etiquette if you don't know.) The experienced player, under the new system would??? Play to their best ability??? Does that seem likely??? I am guessing, and maybe my logic is wacky, that the player would LEEROY JENKINS and get back to the beach without second thought.

As a side note to all the ppl that complained about "leavers" in RA. Now, this point may take a little thought so thinking caps ON.

The "leavers" helped people win and get glad points. Yep. Guess I should explain my Saint Jacques Ass Theory.

Most of the leavers were experienced players, more experienced than the normal player. Most of the leavers were trying to get glad points, which I already pointed out were very difficult to acquire. So in a sequence of events I will show you how the "leaver" helped the ppl he left get glad points.

A: Exp. Player hits enter and gets on team with mending wammo, MM, and some other individual. Exp. Player recognizes that wammo is horrible and MM is horrible then leaves having realized the odds of two out of four players being horrible will obvioulsy result in a horrible time and no glad point. Horrible.

B: Remaining players see Exp. Player leave early if not as soon as wammo casts mending or MM says "I'm an MM". Wammo and MM wait a second while the other player being slightly more skilled figures out its time for him to leave as well. Then having only two players left the Wammo and MM leave as well.

C: Obvious result is that the opposing team, tho unfairly, just received an uncontested win in stellar time that surely would not have happened as quick vs the mending wammo who prolly also had dolyak signet, defy pain, and endure pain and smelled a little like Pinesol.

D: Now to the "thinking part" of the scenario. All four players left and return to the beach. All four players immediately re-enter. All four players get on teams that are possibly more experienced on a whole than the team they were on. Perhaps with a monk or healing rit, wink wink. The two horrible players are not paired on the same team and are therefore not as huge a handicap. Hopefully someone on their new team suggest that they are horrible and that they should get a new build for PVP. (that was kind of a joke.)

END RESULT: "leaver" and three other players initially on the same party now have an increased chance of getting a glad point thanks to, YEP, the "leaver" that had enough experience to say, this isn't gonna work. Also, opposing team, although unfairly, just advanced without wasting time. But, I think we can all agree they would have most likely won anyhow.

Now I realize that this doesn't justify leaving or go along with the idea of Random. But in itself I think it accurately shows how the 'leaver" was actually helping most ppl win. (it's an arena, you did want to win right?)

Also, if you disconnect, even if it is the ANET server's fault, upon re-entering you are penalized and must wait should you have already disconnected earlier, or have somehow accrued dishonor prior to the disconnection. I think we can all agree that when ANET's servers start disconnecting or failing on a whole they will go back up and then back down. So you could very feasible get a dishonorable hex on behalf of ANET's servers. WOW! THANKS ANET! So now we not only have a server failure, lag, disconnections etc., but when we re-enter we are incapable of playing with the character we intended to play. I can think of no other game that penalizes you for their server failures. This alone should call for a re-vamp of the update. And yes, this has happened to me once already and yes I tried to reconnect and yes it failed and yes I got the hex.

Answer: Leavers were bad and good. The Dishonor Status thing is easy to get around. I also think that having people kill themselves intentionally is more irritating than them simply leaving. I also think your more experienced players were less prone to complain about leavers since they recognized the reason for them leaving. Honestly I was thankful sometimes since they gave me a more "honorable" reason to leave as well. (Don't use mending in RA.)

Third: Bots

I am confused at how anyone thinks that the new system hinders bots? I am guessing that most people don't know the ease of making a bot and relate what they understand to be a bot as the ones they were able to detect. Well, there are certain bots, not very difficult to make with any keystroke recorder/player, aka macro, that are far more difficult to detect.

Although a decent bot was hard to detect it was not very good at actually playing tho perhaps better than some real players.

The new system actually allows the bot a easier system in which to win and acquire glad points. With the Dishonor hex thing ppl are more inclined to stay on a team and play, obviously. Prior to this they would simply have left if they suspected a bot. Now they are forced to stay and earn a bot a victory if not repeated victories. If a player chooses to leave after a victory they can but the result would be a replacement player assisting the bot. Also, you got the lowered glad point awarding system. So, bots can more easily farm glad points. Easier for a normal player to get a glad, easier for a bot. YAY!

Now you say "but we got this new report system!". Well report a bot and it gets a dishonor hex. I doubt it really cares. And, like I previously stated a decent bot will be more difficult to detect and it is unlikely all three real players would /report. More likely two would report thereby getting themselves closer to actually being Dishonored. GREAT! I am a little ignorant of the thoroughness of the actual /reporting system as I am sure we all are. I think some ppl think there are ANET workers slaving round the clock to check logs of reports and there are other ppl that think the system is simply automated and has basically put the power of judge and executioner in the players hands. Pretty obvious this will create more issues than it resolves.

Answer: Bots got it easier thanks to update. Players are less inclined to leave thereby earning victories for bots. Five consecutive wins gets you a glad. Makes botting RA for glad feasible. You can say /reported but I think anyone that has been to Altrumin Ruins in the last few months can agree that ANET's ability or initiative to ban bots is weak.

Fourth: Time Limit

Now this portion of my dissertation is largely opinion. But, I have lost in RA in rather strange ways thanks to the new time limit.

Experience:
Monking a team. We had no deaths and got one kill. One player on our team left. (yeah he left with the new update. crazy.) When the 8 minutes was up we lost even though no one on our team had died and we got one more kill than the other team, the only kill of the game. Now, under what sort of systematic logic should our team have lost?

As for my opinion. The time limit has had a negative effect on RA gameplay. More and more players are trying to make these invinci builds simply to last the 8 minute duration. Nothing more exciting than attacking a team with two monks and the other players have a counter to everything along with maxed armor and HP and far too much self healing. Prior to the update 8 minute matches were a rarity. Most were in the 3-4 minute range. Games have gotten longer since the introduction of the time limit.

Time limit actually encourages runners/snarers/gankers. Simply put, prior to the update no one could win by running alone. Under the new system it is feasible. Yes I realize that it is very difficult to get a win this way but "it is feasible" under the new system. Morale, wtf is that? Where can check my morale? I honestly don't know. But I do know that if you face an Echo Shadow Form build that it is far more likely he will win under this new system than he could have before. You see an Echo Shadow Form build cannot kill most decent monks but can kill the moron that chases him outside of his monks healing range. So you have a situation where Echo Shadow Form gets a few kills and then wins although he could have never killed the monk or the other players remaining close to the monk.

Yes this is hypothetical situation but Echo Shadow Form was perhaps the most notorious running building RA. Snaring the build means you got a skill in your build that is somewhat uncommon and so it is unlikely you would be on a team that could stop an Echo SF. As a monk i can think of nothing more upsetting than to actually lose to someone taking advantage of the time limit and running.

In my opinion I think that a time limit instinctively makes many people run out the clock. Think of the Death Count map. Now I know this is a different situation but people don't stand around if they are ahead marginally when the last seconds are up on a close game. They hit the hills running. They run out the clock. I am sure this same instinct/strategy would be employed in all matches especially if morale can be, will be, viewable. And I think the term for the normal maps in RA is annihilation. Well if you gotta time limit then the title isn't completely accurate.

I have already lost due to time limit when my team had more kills. I was monking and positive no one died unnoticed or anything of that nature. We did have an individual that left but I find that to be an unfair reason for the entire team losing a flawless match. Add to that experience the possiblity of losing a match to a guy that runs the map gets one kill and runs then yeah i think the time limit is questionable.

Answer: Well its questionable. Needs tweaking and it would be nice if we knew all the rules regarding the time limit, morale and their influence on the game outcome.

Fifth: Reporting. (honestly im getting bored of venting at this point and might edit this post later but believe me I could keep going. rawr.)

Okay so I am sure I already touched on the subject somewhere above. Basically I don't think putting the ability for the player to stop another player from playing the game is such a great idea. Also, I don't think ANET is really looking into the thousands upon thousands of reports as some believe. Common sense people, common sense. Prior to the update the best way to handle someone or something that was problematic was to, thats right, leave. Now that option is gone and we got /report. YAY!

Personally speaking I think the update sought to change what were in retrospect minor problems that few individuals found irritating. As I said before the experienced players were never really bothered so much by these problems. I realize this statement generalizes and judges others but it is my opinion. I think that once the complainers actually got better they would be less prone to complain about someone leaving a team that was obviously bad or even not good on a scale of apple to orange.

I think on a whole the updates will reveal themselves to be counterproductive. You don't have leavers now. You have Kamikazes and /resigners. Bots got it easier. Time limit allows runners to actually win and morale is too vague.

In discussing the pros of the new update one guy said the devs stated somewhere that their intention was to make it so that someone could simply go in and play for a few games then leave etc. without being bothered by leavers. This system definitely doesn't speed up or enhance casual game play.
You have someone that leaves on your team now? Tough, play it out or get penalized. Wanna leave and go eat. Tough. Not an option. You leave accidentally or get disconnected, wait ten minutes bro, then you can casually play. No this is not a more casual playing environment and I doubt if that was the intent of the devs, if so they failed to really create that playing environment.

Like I said I'm tired of writing. But, in closing I think the efforts made by the ANET staff is great just somewhat counterproductive and short sighted. I can see that the reporting feature is tentative which is good since I see a lot of people have strong feelings about that feature. I really wish the glad title point system adjustment could be further explained as to how the increased values relate to our original values or something that seemed to be ground in mathematics or science. Make me a line graph. Something. I spent months getting a title now I have a title that is arbitrary. ? Regardless of that the difficulty of achieving the glad points has been lessened which invariably changes the prestige of the title. I can think of no other PVP title that has been changed in such a manner. I know the HB point system changed but not in this manner.

Like I said, I'll come back to this post later and add to it. And like the title suggest I really wish someone capable of making a change, namely a developer, would take the time to read this. Also if there is a post elsewhere that addresses the update plz feel free to post this there or let me know in a reply of the other thread.

Paul Devine
Pulitzer Prize Winner 2004
No really.

Kool Pajamas · Oct 02, 2007, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Haha. Pretty weird that GW and WoW get a anti-grief system around the same time.

The difference though is in WoW its more for anti-afk and as soon as you (the person being reported) fight someone or cast a spell on a friendly target the "debuff" gets removed.

Dark Paladin X · Oct 02, 2007, 01:53 AM // 01:53

The purpose of the dishonorable combat system is to prevent leechers and "traitors" (those who leave AB on purpose) from ruining the fun of PvP (especially AB). I love the new system and this is one of the few things ArenaNet did right (I counted more wrongs relating to farming by ArenaNet, but I counted more rights of ArenaNet on PvP).

Lyonette · Oct 02, 2007, 01:55 AM // 01:55

jus another way of making this once social game even more anit-social...

Antheus · Oct 02, 2007, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyonette

jus another way of making this once social game even more anit-social...

Actually, it's making the game social again, by removing anti-social elements.

Vazze · Oct 02, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by GladTitleNerf

Okay where to start?

Lol. Long post. I agree that overall this update was a bigger failure, but we don't exactly agree on the reasons.

Glad title
I don't see any problem with this. Yes, the title changed, progress became faster in TA, slower in RA and the "value" of the rank shifted. I see this as a minor change, and considering that a large number of players favored much worse alternatives, this is a very good change.

Leavers in RA
Agreed, biggest failure of this update. When Ryan started a discussion on wiki (and when Andrew started a thread here on guru) a few people (including me) were already worried that if anet is trying to solve the problem with punishment, that will only create another (even more!) harmful playstyle: suicide/kamikazee. It did not take long and players have became proficient killing themselves in ways that even the most thorough snitchers overlooked!

Glad points and leavers
Don't complicate things: leavers accelerated the life in RA, which sped up the progress of not only the leavers but the entire population of the arena too (although to a much less extent). But as I said, this is meaningless, rank is just a number and pls..you don't want to convince people that they should love leavers instead of whining about them for a year. You can't, they don't care about ideal composition/wining/progressing, they just want to have fun. Try to understand their reasons before you expect them to understand yours.

Report system
Although this feature looks a rather harmless and handy tool, it is a beast in reality. Instead of being a channel to the developers for those who are in need of help, it gives the users the right to police the world. GW felt like communism, in-game support: good --- in-game report and instant judgment: khm...this is something very different.

Zahr Dalsk · Oct 02, 2007, 02:42 AM // 02:42

I just got dishonorable for leaving when my team was clearly outmatched - one player had lagged out and the others were dying fast, including me.

Three simple letters.

WTF

wolfwing · Oct 02, 2007, 02:54 AM // 02:54

I think what should be done, is what I suggested in the first place, only the first person to leave gets punished, this means that if someon DOES leave your not forced to deal with part of a team.